For thought
Some good points made by some intelligent historians. I agree with Einstein that many people, from childhood, are taught to fear and believe - or else. And from there, become adults who simply wade through goofy religious rituals without thought, just because. Bible stories are really just fairy tales. With its many interpretations, how can anyone relate? Are people who question but indeed live a moral, giving, helpful life doomed for eternity?
"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."
"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
-Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
"I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life."
- Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
"Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?"
Arthur C. Clarke, author
"I wasn't raised Catholic, but I used to go to Mass with my friends, and I viewed the whole business as a lot of very enthralling hocus-pocus. There's a guy hanging upon the wall in the church, nailed to a cross and dripping blood, and everybody's blaming themselves for that man's torment, but I said to myself, 'Forget it. I had no hand in that evil. I have no original sin. There’s no blood of any sacred martyr on my hands. I pass on all of this."
"I believe that all important matters have to be settled here, not in the clouds somewhere after we kick off."
-Billy Joel, American musician
Religion is just mind control."
- George Carlin, comedian
"By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God."
"It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous."
-Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
"There is so much in the bible against which every insinct of my being rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention."
-Helen Keller, American lecturer
"It may feel good to tell you children there is a beautiful place we all will meet after death, but wouldn't you rather tell them the truth?"
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies."
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
"Religion is all bunk. I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life – our desire to go on living … our dread of coming to an end."
- Thomas Edison, American inventor (1847-1931).
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Crazy comments to read first thing Sunday morning! Can't say I disagree. Love the avatar by the way...but as you know...hate the message!
Two things that should never be debated politics and religion. Answer me a question Where do you believe we go after death? I like to see what you tell your children.
Well, I tell them that many people believe in heaven, but that I do not think it can be proven that there is or isn't. When I question, as I do...sorry, I just can't bring myself to "lie" about this. Yes, it would make me feel real good to paint a pretty picture of a wonderful place. I simply do not believe in an afterlife. I belive that many (not all) people go through the rituals and "believe" simply because they are afraid not to.
Yes, maybe religion should not be discussed. I didn't want a debate, persay - but just a lot to think about - maybe some insight and opinions about what these famous people really thought. I like to question and think - I'm a rebel.
The avatar - thought it was appropriate :) But I'll change it later!
Well said.
~* chanel *~
I guess I just see it that if your child was dying and you told him that it just might be scarey specially the way you say it. Atleast they can have some hope that their is a better place for them on the other side. Not sure it's a lie I do believe that your loved ones do come back to visit after they have gone on. I have first hand experience of this with my Grandmother who I was very close too. Nothing anyone can say can change what happened to me. Well your blog does make one think but their is other famous people out their that would say that they believe in religion and God.
I'm not afraid to not believe in heaven...and no one knows for sure. Religion, in its best sense can be a real source of comfort for some people, I have seen that not in my life as much as others. The community it can bring can be amazing. As I grew older, I have seen the church really becoming the gatekeeper of getting close to God, telling me what to believe, how to pray, etc. So I distanced myself. I believe there is some spirit out there and that spirit may be a source of energy between living things. I believe Jesus remains one of the most influencial philosphers...do I beleive he was God? Not so sure. Even if not, I think it does not diminish his impact one bit.
We should lead a good and decent life on earth to the best of our ability not because of some promise of an afterlife, but because it is the right thing to do for us as humans.
*pending*
~* chanel *~
Wow, that’s a great synopsis. The whole religion thing is a tough one. I was raised a Catholic and went through 16 years of Catholic education. I have a lot of issues with the doctrine of the church—anybody familiar with the Catholic church’s change in stance on purgatory? I think one of the most religious things I ever heard wasn’t in my college level Theology classes, but from my non-church going father. He didn’t practice any faith openly, but lived a very good life. When asked if he believed in God my father’s reply was, “When I look around me and see my children and the beautiful things that exist on this earth I don’t feel they just happened. I feel that some type of God had to have a hand in it.”
I must admit that I haven’t spent a lot of my life focusing on an after life, but I do think something exists out there. My dad passed away almost 5 years ago and there are times I have felt his presence with me. My son played a sport that my dad had played in college. The season after my father passed my son improved very noticeably. I had parents asking me what I fed him, what he did to get better, etc. I was happy to see him playing well, but knew we hadn’t done anything special or different for him. Then one night in the middle of the night I swear my father was standing in my room telling me he was helping my son. Before that point I had never made any connection between my son's improvement and my dad.
I also believe it really all boils down to living a good life and being a good person
I just know, in my heart, that when my time comes, I will be greeted at the great Blues Bar in the sky, by my bro, who will have a double Jack and Coke for me (which I can no longer consume in this life) and Mom and Dad will be at a table, drinking their sweet tea. Then Muddy Waters will be on stage.......
You just sent shivers up my spine. My experience was of this. My gram and I were very close and I am always thinking about her. To give you alittle background my Gram was from Italy and came over on the boat when she was a teenager. So getting back to this I had come into work one day and was talking to our secretray and fiddling around with change in my pocket and noticed a quarter and said to the secretary that I had a canadian quarter she told me that isn't canadian and upon looking at this coin further it was a Quarter from ITALY. Yes this could mean nothing but how many time have you other then Canadian money recieved anyother coin? Personally this was a first for me and I do believe that my Grammother is with me and that just proved it.
That kind of stuff still give me shivers too. I think somehow we maintain a connection with the ones we were closest to that have passed on.
I don't disagree with the idea that your religious upbringing is essentially an indoctrination to instill a belief set. You're taught as a child that there are substantial consequences for your actions and behavior, which shapes your sense of morality. So there is truth to the idea that religion is about control.
I was raised as a Catholic and had 16 years of Catholic education. I, like many others here, have experienced my share of hardships, but I'm extremely lucky compared to many. Because I've experienced hardships, should I conclude that there's no God?
I also reject specific Catholic teachings, or ideas, if they differ from my own, because it's convenient to do so. Many people will rationalize away a teaching as not applying to them, because it makes them too uncomfortable to acknowledge their failures and sins, especially as they continue to freely choose to commit them. To me, you're in the land of wishful thinking with this perspective - you want to selectively take the good - the belief of an afterlife - without the bad - the restrictions that somebody, a priest or a pope or whoever - applies to your behavior, as a requirement to follow a religion.
And as someone noted above, you can find as many thought-provoking quotations on the side of religion as from those listed above. Give me a break too - Billy Joel? George Carlin? They are entertainers, not philosophers. Does what they think matter any more than what you or I think? Gloria Steinam? She can't even try to be profound without lacing some liberal slant against "corporations" in her quote.
So I live in the land of wishful thinking, living my life in a generally moral way, but not bothering to adhere to the constructs of a religion. If you don't have even the slightest hope that there's something after this life, then you should be living 100% in the here and now, living 100% for yourself. Why have any sense of morality? What's it going to do for you? Why be kind to a stranger? Why donate to a charity? Don't tell me that it's the right thing to do... How can living morally be "the right way to live" if in the end, you simply cease to exist when your heart stops and your body goes cold?
Very deep...
~* chanel *~
I agree with much of what you say here...except your last sentence or two.
"Why do the right thing now if I don't believe in an after life?" Because it feels good to do so. It is enjoyable to help others, donate, etc...
I do these things for me and teach my children the same, because it makes me feel good now. It feels good to be kind or to help in any way to make someone else's life a little easier. It feels good to be happy as that happiness can be contagious. Living morally is the right way to live because it feels good and, of course, you want your children to follow and practice this behavior as well. It has absolutely nothing to do with pleasing a higher being for fear of punishment or hoping to get to heaven.
As for Billy Joel, George Carlin, Gloria Steinam...no, they are not philosophers; however, their statements are something to think about. I do not completely dismiss their ideas. It doesn't matter who has made these statements, they are simply thought provoking and, in my opinion, not off track at all.
I also agree with Hotfire that religion has given comfort to many. But, I think people should also not forget to rely on their own inner strengths to get them through tough times.
I could say I disagree with you and leave it at that. But since you felt it necessary to add inflammatory statements, I'll play.
Your quotes are from "intelligent historians". Not one person on the list can be called a "historian" and I would question the intelligence of some. If you felt the need to align yourself with others that think like you, that's fine. To categorize religious beliefs as "goofy religious rituals" and "bible stories as fairy tales", to me, is a narcissistic statement. Is your intellect at such a level, that unless you are given empirical evidence to support a belief, you will deny and belittle that belief? Do you feel that you, and others of your ilk, have obtained the highest possible intellectual foundation that anything that doesn't fit into your preconceived notions is impossible?
HF made a "quasi-agnostic" statement when he said he didn't know if Jesus was God, but he believed he was one of our greatest philosophers. Based on what? That very statement acknowledges what Jesus said, but there is absolutely no hard evidence that he even existed, therefore everything attributed to him, may be false. The fact that I believe it, is based on faith. I can no more prove the existence of God than you can prove he doesn't exist. Your response to CT that you would deny the possibility of heaven to a dying child, speaks volumes of how you are willing to accept your infallibility.
I could say you should pray you're not wrong, but that wouldn't make any sense either, would it?
well said TL
statements???? Where? This post was intended for thought (oh - you would indeed have missed that part.) as I stated, not aligning myself with others. As I said, I don't care who made the statements, really, they are simply thought-provoking (again, must be why you missed my point.)
Historians, philosophers, musicians...whatever, so sorry I didn't specifically clarify in one sentence. There were, however, at least one of each in my examples. You must be quite offended, which was not my intent to offend anyone, to get that nit-picky over a word or two. You really seem defensive, why?
"I can no more prove the existence of God than you can prove he doesn't exist." I pretty much said the same thing...that I do not believe it can be PROVEN either way; therefore, I will continue to question. What's your point here - I agree with this!
We all have inner strengths that we should learn to develop and rely upon. I believe that's where your healing comes from...YOU, US, EVERYONE.
You call it infallible, I call it realistic.
Bible stories or fairy tales.....
Do you really believe in a Vigin Mary?
Do you really believe someone can walk on and/or part water...then or now?
Do you really believe in original sin? How can an innocent baby have sin?
I could go on (there are many fine examples of such nonsense), but you see my point...fairy tales.
THe very reason why religion and our religious beliefs should not be a part of this blog in my opinion. A VERY personal opinion and could be cause for major controversy. You could have your blog deleted and that sucks when you're looking for 'answers' ... <3 5
~* chanel *~
until TL got all offended and turned the tables to make it a negative discussion. Everyone else offered their views, experiences...thank you! But TL...had to be a jerk as usual. At least he is reliable. :)
I didn't get the opinion that TL was offended. Just stating his opinion. Religious beliefs are a very personal and touchy subject, That is why perhaps not a 'good' blog subject. Very controversial.
~* chanel *~
Your inability to "see" the inflammatory statements, might also explain your inability to "see" your arrogance.
I'll assume your children "feel" that part of your role as a mother is that of a "protector". Unless an event happens that a child is shown he/she cannot expect you to protect them, that is an instinct that is inherent in both the child and mother. That is also defined as a "belief", or something that is known without proof. Would you accept the "fact" that your child knows you would protect him/her? If your answer is yes, then it would follow that your child's belief in that "fact" would be defined as "faith" or the knowledge that you will also protect him/her in the future. If the event never happens that would force you to prove you would defend your child, does that make that "belief" and "faith" false? You don't need the proof of that fact, do you? That knowledge must be accepted by you by drawing from the deep wells of your "inner self". You could argue that animals have the same instinct. A "mother" is often willing to sacrifice her own life to protect her child. But that "instinct" defies the instinct of survival. As humans we can try to explain that with reasoning, something the animal can't do. So now we can delve into a discussion of metaphysics, which is something else that will only totally confuse you.
Your "bible fairy tales" are obviously something that are beyond your understanding. Rather than to continue to argue or discuss this issue, I would prefer to accept the "fact" that there are people with limited brain capacity that are unable to see anything not sitting in front of them.
In other words, you are hereby christened "Mrs Poopy Pants".
I went to college with A Vegan Mary.
Funny...as usual!
You know I am up at 6am reading this serious blog and all of a sudden I read yours and bust out laughing. The people in my house that are sleeping are thinking what is that woman laughing about. You always know how to break the icce when things get a bit heated.